Automatic Litterbox Central

Hello all. I'm known in other realms for generating walls of text. I apologize in advance.

I have two cats, Daisy and Max. They have lived together in my family since they were both kittens and I think they're pushing 8 years old now. Most of that time they have obligingly shared one litter box.

About three years ago they both ended up with me in my small-ish apartment. For the first two years they continued to share one litter box just fine. One extended weekend I neglected the box a bit too long. I don't know if that was a trigger or simply coincidence that at that time the male cat, Max, decided to poo on the carpeted floor just outside the closet where the litter box had always been. He continued pooing on the floor even with a fresh box of the same litter he had been using just fine, which happened to be Feline Pine pellets. He knows full well that he is doing wrong because every time I find the pile he is hiding under the couch to avoid the stern scolding that he knows is coming. He never hides under the couch except when there's a pile on the floor. When I come home from work and he's nowhere in sight, I know it's time to look for the pile and sure enough it's right there, on the carpet just outside the closet where the litter box is.

Over the past year I've tried clay, pine pellets, scoopable pine and going to two litter boxes, both covered and uncovered, with various litters. The only thing that seemed to fully meet Max's satisfaction is using two separate boxes and Feline Pine scoopable litter. I'm suspecting that as he's getting older maybe he just decided he didn't like the hard pellets any more and the soft pine scoopable is easier on his paws. Or maybe he decided that he only likes to use a fresh box.

Why am I posting this here? Because I got sick and tired of not only scooping two litter boxes every day, but the scoopable pine litter was being tracked EVERYWHERE including onto the couch and the bed. I decided that I needed to try ScoopFree because there was little joy left in having Max in the apartment. Hopefully a self-cleaning box with crystal litter will be acceptable to him because status quo is no longer acceptable to me. I just wasn't sure if he'd adapt to the crystals which I had never tried before.

I replaced one litter box with the SccoopFree box and the crystals that came with it. Daisy christened it almost immediately after I set it up and has no problems with it. Max continued using the old box with the scoopable pine litter. Over the course of the first ten days I let the old box just get nasty, hoping Max would start using the ScoopFree which was working as designed. I even added handfuls of the pine to the SF, as well as moving his piles into the SF. Right up to the last day it seemed he was still making piles in the old box but I think I caught him urinating in the SF a couple times. When I changed out the first tray of crystals, replacing it with a Forever Tray and Just the Crystals, I also removed the old litter box completely. With the old box of scoopable pine gone Max immediately went back to his trick of pooing on the floor just outside the closet where the SF box is. However I'm not finding any wet spots, so I'm assuming he is urinating in the SF box.

I've tried locking him in a bathroom with the SF for days, this time with the Mimi crystals from Wal-mart because I've read that they are smaller and possibly easier on sensitive paws. He made no messes on the floor. I verified he had indeed used the SF. I let him out of the bathroom. He pooed on the carpet. Back in the bathroom for a full week. He made at least two piles in the box. He seems to go about every two days or so. Let him out, he pooed on the floor. He poos on the carpet about every two days or so.

I'm over a month into my 90 day return option on the ScoopFree. It is functioning as designed, and as far as Daisy is concerned it's a wonderful product. But with the money I've spent on the SF, the hood, and the Forever Tray if I have to maintain a separate box for Max with the scoopable pine then all that money is wasted and I can't afford to throw away that kind of money.

Tonight after picking up another pile from the floor I set up a second box with crystals to hopefully find out if it's the crystals or the SF box that Max doesn't like. I guess I have to wait a few days to find out. I'm really confused since he uses the SF box when he's locked in a bathroom with it, and he seems to be urinating in it even when he is loose and it is in the closet. I'm wondering if he only digs to cover his piles, so that's when the texture of the litter bugs him? Maybe going on the linoleum in the bathroom is even worse to him than having to use the crystals so he uses the box, but when given the option of the carpet he prefers that to the crystals?

I am curious about the comments in another thread suggesting a reformulating of the Just the Crystals to a finer, softer cut. Even if the smaller cut would require more frequent changing, if Max can adapt to that then I'd be absolutely fine with replacing the crystals every 7 days as long as the cost isn't prohibitive. I'd be willing to pay a little more to empty a box every weekend instead of scooping daily.

Any other ideas or suggestions before I either return the ScoopFree and return to the scoopable pine or find a new home for Max? I really want to keep both, but if I can't get Max to be satisfied with the product than one of them needs to go.

I regret to say that after messing with assorted sizes and shapes of litter (more than I care to admit!) that I honestly think the "softer" or "gentler" crystal idea is something propagated by litter companies to sell their products. After lots of experimenting and feedback from ton of people, I personally believe that this is a marketing thing (except of course for the ones with huge rocks in the litter). Common sense tells us that cat's paws aren't genetically engineered for plush carpet -- but for being outdoors. A good test is to try pushing ones hand down hard on a tray full of (clean!) litter. It's not that sharp.

So sadly I don't think the answer for you is not going to boil down to a simple choice of litters, but more likely to something behavioral. I'm wondering if you're not on the right track with trying the standard box with crystals just to see how he reacts. That will be the real test. I've had a few people whose cats absolutely refused to go into a SF -- for some reason it freaked them out -- but were fine with crystals.

As an aside, if this doesn't work out for you, you can contact me directly via the contact info at my website and I'll be happy to take your Forever Tray back and refund your purchase price -- and there's no time limit, so don't worry about that from my side. (Trays that are returned are donated to cat shelters/cat rescue people that use the SF system -- so it wouldn't simply be tossed or go to waste).

I'll be interested to hear the result of your latest test.

MaxFrustration, I went through something similar with my cat that ultimately died of a urinary tract infection, I thought it was the crystals and sensitive paws too at one point, but in retrospect I don't think it was anything to do with her paws. And not that it's the same in your case, but especially male cats are susceptible to urinary tract issues, if he just suddenly got picky about boxes, I'd have him checked out. Dirty boxes can aggravate urinary tract issues, even if it was only one time.

I know it's frustrating. I'm currently dealing with a kitten that literally makes sure the minute I come home from work I see him peeing on the couch. Eeeewwww! But otherwise uses any of three boxes (SF, CG, and a regular box) just fine. Behavioral issues, heh.

I've been going through something very, very similar. It's not the carpet my kitty is pooping on though (thank goodness!), but the linoleum in the bathroom right next to her boxes.

It's very, very frustrating bc I just *cannot* understand why she does this either'?! I have tried all kinds of scenarios like you have... one box, two boxes, different litters, switch, etc. She is not consistent with any of them. One day she'll poop in one box with Just The Crystals, pee in the other with Mimi, then the next day it's vice versa. I'd then think, "Hmmm, she simply needs to have separate boxes to do her thing(s) in, I guess"... then she will suddenly surprise me by leaving her tootsie rolls on my floor again. Sigh!:(

I use a wheelchair, so between the two litter boxes and my wheelchair (and the occasion floor mess to clean up), the joy of having her around is beginning to trickle out... and I feel terrible for saying that!

Well, we have a minor breakthrough. I'm starting on day 4 with no piles on the floor.

One of my primary goals is to not have a litter box in the guest bathroom any more. I put the second plain old litter box with crystals in the same closet with the ScoopFree. I found a pile in that second box on the second day. Cleaning it involved literally just tossing the pile two feet to the left into the SF and activating the timer. I think I can handle that if I have to.

I have considered the possibility of Max having a health issue. I've done a tremendous amount of reading and to summarize it seems like uncharacteristic peeing frequently indicates health problems, while uncharacteristic pooing more often indicates a dislike of the available facilities and in a male getting along in years may be a territorial statement or just plain old grumpy attitude. Since I've noticed no peeing problems, and it has been pretty clear that his change in behavior follows a change in his box/litter arrangements, I'm quite sure it's behavioral.

Since both boxes have crystals in them and there's no poo on the floor I seem to have ruled out the crystals as the problem.

I think I'm down to two possibilities now.

1. Max doesn't like to poo and pee in the same box any more.
2. Max doesn't like the cover over the ScoopFree. I do not have a cover over the second box.

I think I'll leave this alone for at least a few more days just to make sure he's had a chance to go a few times. Since I'd really like to get away from maintaining two boxes I think my next test will be to remove the lid from the Scoop Free and take away the second litter box. I'd prefer to keep it covered because Daisy is a digger, but sweeping up a little stray litter every weekend beats scooping piles every couple days.

If I'm really lucky Max will compromise with me and use the ScoopFree consistently when I remove the cover. I'll drop by again next week with more results in case anyone is interested.

I'm so glad you're down to a few possible causes. It's really frustrating when there are so many possibilities and you're not sure where to start. Sure sounds like the cover could easily be a culprit! I'd love to know how you make out.

JENN wrote: and I feel terrible for saying that!

I've been right where you are, too. Just keep trying things. Eliminate them: First health, then move on to different scenarios, what might make her not like to poo there.

At least it's poo and not pee. My hardwood floors are forever stained... but at least I have a permanent reminder of my baby girl!

Once upon a time ago, I had the Littermaid Elite, I think it was called. Anyway, it had an elaborate tent that the box sat in. I hated it, but boy did my cat's hate it. I removed the tent and they were happy again. I've used Scoop Free for years now and it's only when I neglect the box's that I get something on the outside of the box. I seldom neglect.
I have 3 boxes for 4 cats. I can definitely see that they have preferences for not peeing in the same box they pooped in.

I digress....I agree with losing the lid to the box. I have hope for you that Max will adapt to the roofless box. Cats have their way of communicating with us when they are not happy.
Good luck, Betty

As always, LBC members are the best! It's always great to see how many people come forward with ideas and suggestions to help each other.

The other posts jogged me to remember some things as well -- just some more personal experiences to add into the mix.

Regarding the hood -- I'm thinking the suggestions to try removing it are a good idea. Our own Stan didn't much care for the hood either, but our dilemma without the hood was that he is so tall that he would stand with his forefeet on one side of the SF, back legs in the box, and pee.....thinking he was peeing into the box, when in fact he was peeing right over the other side. My solution was to cut off the top part of the hood, so that just the three tall sides remained -- and everyone has been happy since.

The other experience, even more specifically related to your situation, is what someone else brought up -- that is medical issues. When a cat exhibits strange behaviors like this, more often than not they are (as someone else pointed out) trying to communicate with you that something is wrong. If a cat appear sick, then they are most likely near death, as by instinct they won't exhibit weakness, but will rather show a problem with behavioral quirks. Our Stan (again) at one point started to pee on our bed (yuck). We took him to the vet, to find that he had developed a severe urinary tract condition -- and that he was near kidney failure! His general behavior and appetite hadn't changed, just the peeing thing.

Just some more ideas to add into the mix........

Reading Jack & Stan's dad's post prompted me to take my own advice and get NewCat (his real name is Sammy) checked out. Not sure whether this is good or bad news, but the cat is perfectly healthy (at least as far as his urine goes).

Little devil, though, still somehow thinks it's funny to look at me, jump on the couch, and start peeing in front of me (not spraying). This time I was quick, though, and grabbed him and put him in the cat genie. He was really mad 'cause I locked him in there (bathroom/utility room) for 20 min...didn't talk to me for a whole day, and didn't sleep with us, either, but he did eventually finish his duty in the CG. He has two favorite places to pee on the sofa, both are spots over the cracks in the cushions, over which I've taped aluminum foil, which doesn't seem to deter him.

Sammy is 9 months and has no problems using any of the litterboxes, I've seen him use them properly many times, and he does have a preference for the SF...just that occasionally he likes to do this pee on the sofa thing. He was a rescue at 6 months from the tough Oakland streets, so while he's great at bonding over time, he's initially skittish with people and occasionally reverts to feral-ish baby. The other cat in the house is my Simba, he's 15 and has skin cancer and is terminal (last Tuesday the dr said 2-6 weeks).

What I've come up with on my own is that I'm so freaked out about Simba that it's probably freaking the little guy out a bit. I'm probably playing "favorites" to some extent, but I do go out of my way to make sure Sammy gets his play time every day, and am spending time training him to wear a leash/harness and to perch on my shoulder. They also get along fairly well, Sammy does do a little bit of dominant head-butting, but then he'll also throw himself down on his back in front of Simba, in a "Play with ME! Look, I'm your TARGET!" sort of way.

Anyone have any suggestions of things to try? Maybe this post is in the wrong place...I don't think it's related to litterboxes, ah well.

MaxFrustration, how are you making out? Jenn?

My heat goes out to you Cecilia.........it's so hard when we see a long-time family member start to have terminal health issues.

I'm sorry but I'm all out of ideas/suggestions -- hoping someone else will step in with something.

And far as the post being in the right or wrong place -- I don't think it matters too much in the end. The goal is to help each other by sharing.........

I'm so sad to hear about your Simba kitty. Cecilia, I think most of us know the pain of facing such a loss. It's possible that Sammy has been feeling a bit of this himself and knew before you did just how sick Simba is. Cats have their ways of responding to stress and change. I wish I knew the magic answer to help Sammy deal with this.
You and your kitty family are in my thoughts. Betty

Hi Cecilia, I, too, am sorry to hear about your kitty, Simba. Part of having a pet is that, hopefully, we outlive them which means that we have to let them go at some point. To see them suffer, anticipate their deaths, and to miss them after they have gone is heart wrenching.

I have one more story to give you and hopefully it will contain some idea for you regarding Sammy. First, I commend you on taking him immediately to his litter box and also giving him some "time out" as a result of his cat accident on the couch. I had a male kitty (Nuba) who started peeing on a lawn chair, progressed to the leather couch, and ended up using a corner in the living room. I cleaned each spot very thoroughly while he spent about 5 days to a week confined with his litter box (toys, scratching post, toys -- yes, it was prison but I tried to make it tolerable). Now when I say I cleaned, I mean I cleaned the cushions or carpet spot over the period of time he was confined, sometimes daily, until I could detect no odor. And I used the products designed for this such as Nature's Miracle, and an Arm and Hammer product. AND then, I did not let him have access to the area (after he came out of confinement) for a while trying to limit him building a habit of using the area as his personal toilet. (Of course, he just moved on to another spot.) Finally, I got wise (or conditioned), after I let him out, I starting watching him because I wanted to catch him before he peed or pooped to redirect him to the litter box. In doing so, I learned two things. First I found what was likely causing his behavior... What I found was that he usually had accidents when I was running the washing machine or dishwasher... His litter box was in the laundry room and the dishwasher in the kitchen... the room he had to enter and cross to get to the laundry room. So when washer or dishwasher was on, the noises frightened him away from his litter box and if he needed to go, he would use the room he was in, generally the living room. Second, by watching him, I learned when he might need to go so I would not run the equipment during that period of time.

That may be too much information for you. The pertinent information:
1) After cleaning up the couch (using lots of spray on cushions and the area below the cushions, letting it dry, cleaning it again, etc.) I restricted his access to the area. With the leather couch, I covered it with a plastic tarp for a while to restrict Nuba's access to it and prevent him from getting into a habit of using it.
2) And I used that confinement method to get him back in the habit of only using his litter box.
3) And I became very much aware of where he was at and what he was doing. He usually meowed and started sniffing around when he needed to go.... And I took him to the litter box if necessary and directed his behavior. He did learn... And so did I, about the dishwasher and washer.

Wow, I never thought of appliances being the root of behavior problems. Thankfully all 4 of mine couldn't care less, unless it's the vacuum cleaner. Good post.

@spaceshare, that is great observation! Truth is the cat genie is past the washer/dryer, but I don't run them so much that they could cause too much fright...but I'm paying more attention now. Great catch!

Sammy hasn't peed on the couch in a few days...actually, I should go check now, who knows what devil got ahold of him in the last few hours hehehe

Thank you all for your thoughts for Simba. Yeah, I know the whole life cycle thing...but what hurts me most is that my baby doesn't really know he's sick, he's just got this itchy tumor getting bigger and bigger, and at some point soon I have to make a decision...the decision...and I hope I do it right. It's just a little stressful. Sorry, need to stop feeling so sad, he has had a great life and been totally loved.