Automatic Litterbox Central

Sounds like someone is employed in the new permascoop PR dept, yes?

I take it you are referring to me...

Since I am 10 states away, do not KNOW any of these people, have at least 1 very sick cat, work full time as an X-Ray Tech, and don't really care WHAT you paranoically think----I'll just go back to lurking from now on!

Take it or leave it--100 websites and the EPA don't lie--PVC is POISON

Kevin R

P.S. They couldn't pay me enough!

JENN wrote:Sounds like someone is employed in the new permascoop PR dept, yes?

Hi there, I've gotten some nice advice from (Jack n' Stans Dad) - I think that's his name. As I said previously, I'm sure he's a lovely man, you can tell just by interactions with him. I thought the same thing as you when I first read the email about pvc, I thought he was a troll, but I looked it up. Microsoft and several other companies have stopped using PVC in their packaging because it is known dangerous toxin. Maybe Jack n' stans dad has a special kind of PVC or something, Im sure he'll come and tell us what he knows, he seems very responsible. I don't think anyone is attacking anyone, but none of us wants to see our pets sick.

THe other thing is that Jack n stans dad has told us repeatedly he doesn't make much money doing this, I think its a labor of love & fun for him more than profit. I'm sure he is concerned about the pets as we are. Just wait and see what he says.

Thank you guys all for your advice, I hope this doesn't turn into some kind of vicious fight. (Cat fight, haha)

Phthalate is added to polyvinyl chloride (PVC) to make flexible plastic. They can leach out of vinyl chloride. An example of phthalates is--diethylhexyl phthalate (DEHP). In hospitals, some medicines have to put in glass bottle because they can cause the DEHP leach out of the PVC bag

Rigid PVC (unplasticized PVC, also called uPVC) does not contain plasticizers. May be the tree-box stand has something with plasticizers

I read this in my chemistry book.

Yes, I was just about to post that it's unlikely the Forever Trays leech phalates, as that's a different PVC.

Also, here is an article with a different take on plastic softeners: http://www.toydirectory.com/monthly/article.asp?id=1687

First, I'd like to apologize for not having responded sooner, as we were away on vacation for the past couple of weeks and didn't return until last night. Please also forgive if this post is a bit long -- however this is a very important topic that should be properly addressed.

I'd like to begin by expressing my sympathy to CuyaKman and his cat -- that's a very frustrating and painful thing to be going through. My concern is that the source of your cat's lesions may indeed not be what you think -- but rather something else in your home. Based on the published medical info, the symptoms of damage from phthalates shows up in liver, reproductive systems, etc -- not in skin lesions. A good compilation of this info was put together by an environmental professional and can be found at a Reason.org publication -- http://www.reason.org/peg2.html. There are a huge number of products in our homes which contain phthalates that could be the culprit -- or something else for that matter. Please keep your mind open to the possibility that something else could be harming your cat.

All too often when there's a problem with a product or element in our lives it gets lumped all into one, and anything associated with it is labeled as evil and poison -- in this instance PVC -- and what usually occurs (as in this case) is that folks are quick to blame before getting all the facts in hand. All PVC-based products are not the same -- it's the foundation for a huge number of products we use in our daily lives (see below). What has emerged as the real problem is the use of phthalates to soften PVC for these applications -- and people then think all PVC contains phthalates, which is not true. (I also think the link presented by Bette brings up another very good point on this matter).

A very well written article precisely on this topic can be found in an article in the LA Times that came out just this past September, that can also be found re-printed at Environmental Working Group.org's website. I've cut and pasted a section below (with pertinent parts highlighted) to hopefully shed more light on this issue. (The entire article can be found at http://www.ewg.org/node/22566. I'd strongly suggest reading the whole article).

PVC ingredient a problem

Plastic No. 3, polyvinyl chloride or PVC, was one of the earliest plastic chemicals to be linked to cancer. Studies dating back to the 1970s showed that PVC factory workers suffered an increased risk of a rare form of liver cancer -- an effect that had been demonstrated earlier in animal experiments.

The toxic agent, it turned out, wasn't the finished product; it was a PVC building block, a chemical known as vinyl chloride monomer. Vinyl chloride monomer poses no threat to people who use finished PVC products. (The monomer, unlike a PVC product, is small enough to be inhaled; in the body, it gets broken down into chemicals thought to damage genetic material.) More recent research, however, indicates that other components of PVC -- phthalates -- may pose health risks to the end users of the plastic.

Phthalates are added to normally rigid PVC to make soft products, including the plastic bags that store blood, plasma and intravenous fluids; feeding, breathing and dialysis tubes; catheters; respiratory masks; and exam gloves. Phthalates are also found in children's toys, vinyl floors, wallpaper, shower curtains, vinyl bibs and countless cosmetics, including lotions, shampoos and nail polish.

As was pointed out by both Bette and Bookworm, the Forever Trays are made from rigid PVC, and thus do not contain phthalates. All the components used in tray building/sealing have been checked out with the health and safety of our cats in mind. I'm an engineer by training, and a life-long cat owner and cat lover by choice. I wouldn't want to put something together that harms my cats (or anyone else's!)

CuyaKman -- I'm sorry if you felt attacked -- but you also have to look at the timing and content of your post. With the hundreds of PVC trays now in use (mine as well as those made by other folks -- many over quite an extended period of time), and the literally thousands of posts and page views here at LBC, there have been no reports of any medical issues of any kind -- until your post (amounting to more of a diatribe) which appeared to be oddly coincidental in timing (and verbiage as well) with what PermaScoop is using as a sales tool.

While I respect other people's views and opinions, I don't want this forum to turn into a battleground over this topic. Rather, I wanted to present information so that people can make intelligent, informed decisions with all the relevant facts available.

Hi Jack n' Stan's Dad, thanks for your reply - I figured you knew what was going on. Meant to buy your thing after getting your reply to be sure, but then got caught up in school stuff and forgot to come back here. So I guess I'll be getting one off ebay soon. If only you had removable poop tray you'd be my hero~

Thanks for the faith from so many of you -- it does indeed mean a lot.



Now as far as the removable poop compartment.......

That project is not completely on the shelf -- to be honest I'm doing some tinkering with a way to achieve a cost effective way to provide a removable poop compartment, with the possible added benefit of making it approximately twice the size of the current one.

It's not completely out of the question -- it'll just take some studying and experimenting. I do think it's possible.

We'll see.............