Automatic Litterbox Central

I hope I haven't started a topic that gets the fur flying, and if it's out of bounds the mod can delete it. I was just wondering what everyone's opinion was on declawing cats? Some think it ok but I've noticed that some are adamantly against it. What do you think?

Cheers,
Mike

It is a hot button topic for good reason. It shouldn't be looked at lightly - it is a major surgery with serious changes for the cat.

We just had all three declawed on Monday. They are doing much, much better, but are still hurting. I cried the first day, because they were so awkward and in pain.

Our vet put it best, I think: "I hate to do this. I really hate it, however I can't argue with the realities. I had my three cats declawed, b/c they were tearing up my house."

Like our vet, we tried all manner of discipline measures and alternative scratching for a good number of years. We were being humane, but in the end it would have been better to do them as kittens. It's easier on them, then. But, if we'd done that we couldn't have tried for so many years to find a different answer.

Well, we weren't going to get any more cats unless they were declawed.
Our first 2 cats, old now, one passed away, was not declawed.
The cat that is now gone was a beauty. He never purposely scratched me that I know of, even in play.(I even put the phrase, "The Gentle Giant" on the marker I made for him.) But our other cat was the oppisite, a pain, for us and the furniture.

Our next younger cat is Booger, was 2 yrs old in August. He didn't and still does not know the meaning of the word no. All he knew was "claws"! We had him declawed at 5 months, and there's been no problems since. We were recently given a 4 month old kitten that was extremely friendly but we decided ahead of time to go ahead and declaw her because of the success we had with out last cat. She's 5 months old now and she was declawed last week. Unfortuantly she had 2 toes on her right foot to become infected and she is on anti-biotics now.

I hope our kitten gets over the infection, but we surely would not have had any more cats unless they had been declawed.

I personally think such a decision should be up to the individual.

Cheers,
Mike

It is important to make an educated decision on this issue, but ultimately you have to face reality.

Our little guys are doing much better this morning. They are still very sleepy and want a lot of TLC. But, they seem to be getting around better.

I think if you do it when they are younger, it is a lot easier on the cat. Sorry about the infection. I'm sure the vet will pull her through.

It was one thing when we had all our old college day furniture. Who cared about that stuff. Now, we have new furniture and the cat's were exhibiting not a lot of care for it. We also want drapes and rugs. Now, that they're declawed we don't have belabor those decisions.

Still, it isn't something to take lightly. As you well know, it is a serious operation - esp. on older and larger cats.

No offense to those of you that made the choice to have your cats declawed, but I personally think it's cruel. My vet says it's very, very painful for the cats... and compares it to someone removing YOUR fingernails... can we say OUCH!!! I don't know about you, but I wouldn't take kindly to someone doing surgery on me to remove my nails!!

I've had cats all my life... and I never have, and never will put my cats through that. I have cat trees, scratch pads, etc for my cats... and all of mine have always been fine, never really caused any major damage to anything in my house. I trim their claws every 3-4 weeks to keep them from being real sharp. There's also other alternatives called soft paws (rubber tips that are glued over the nails) that can be used if they're being too destructive.

I know it's been banned in alot of other countries because it's been deemed as cruel and unncessary, and they're trying to get it banned here in the US... and personally I hope it does get banned.

Sorry if I offended anyone, just adding my 2 cents, which isn't worth much! LOL Like you said, everyone has their own opinions on the subject!

Ash,

It isn't analogous to removing your fingernails. It is analogous to removing the first knuckle on each finger. Much worse.

We tried every device for scratching and soft paws. The soft paws do not stay on for any length of time that is effective for our cats. We cut their claws two to three times a month. Believe me, we tried everything to avoid this. One thing we didn't try, was sending them outside to live. That would have been the cruelest alternative, IMO.

I am glad that your cats responded to training. I hope everyone tries that first; but, the reality is that sometimes training isn't the answer.

As we all know, not all cats respond the same way to everything. I would never recommend that someone do this w/o trying everything. However, it is a decision that a lot of cats are living with without too much hardship in their warm, safe houses.

cas

OUCH Cas, that sounds even worse... poor lil guys!!! I've seen pics of it on the net, looks very painful.

But I do understand why you did it, and you're certainly not alone with the decision... tons of cats have it done everyday. I have several friends with cats that also had it done, and of course they do survive through it. Once you get through that tough healing process, they'll never know the difference.

You would think with todays technology, they could come up with a better way to make it less painful for them... or at least keep them lightly sedated for a few days until they're more healed, or something!!

I hope your babies heal fast!!

The vet gave us pain meds for both cats when we had this done. I cannot say that either cat was in misery, because both came home and was somewhat active and eating. There are many surguries that humans has that I would consider just as painful, if not more so. I guess one could start with male circumcision, and in Africa female circumcision. The vet told us that declawing was most like a human having the 1st joint of their finger removed. (The joint just behind the fingernail.)

Maybe many of you here do not believe in hunting either, but sometimes animals die a horrible death from misplaced shots. And then there are the 10s of thousands of animals hit by vehicles every year, only to suffer much pain before death.

My point is, every living animal is going to suffer pain at some time. Although animals do not understand the concept of most of their miseries, they can and do make remarkable recoveries when treated properly. So we must understand that it is not the declawing that is so cruel, but rather the treatment these animals gets afterwards, inparticularly the mistreatment that makes it cruel. Some people, most people do look after their cats after declawing, and it is by them we must judge the cosequences and NOT making the innocent people suffer from the consequences of those who do not look after their animals properly.

I am all for as much freedom as possible, letting people decide for themselves what is best, BUT also by letting them pay the consequences for their bad judgements. And that is what makes society smarter, by allowing people to experience and act on their own beliefs and either benefitting from it, or not by paying some price. The problem with this country, the way it is going, is we are letting society dictate what is best for each of us as individuals.

Cheers,
Mike

Not to be offensive, but I think it's perfectly ok to have your cats declawed, provided you yourself are also willing to have all of your fingers amputated.

This is a barbaric practice - my vet refuses to do it. I would never consider it for any reason.

Mike.... As far as human circumcision, that is the HUMANS CHOICE! So you can not even begin to compare that to declawing a cat. A cat has no choice, the owner made the choice for him/her. I think having the joint of your finger removed would be severely painful... so if the vet described it to me that way, it would have been enough just cause for me to choose NOT to have my cats declawed.

Also, your reference of animals suffering severe pain/death from getting hit by cars, and misplaced shots... those are accidents, declawing is intentional... so again, the two don't compare.

Yes every human/animal will suffer some kind of pain at some point in their lives, but that doesn't necessarily mean we want the pain purposely inflicted on us.

I don't agree about society dictating what is best for us either, and I see nothing wrong with our country. As indivuduals, we do have the freedom to experience and act on our own beliefs, and decide whats best for us. But there still has to be some set limitations and rules, otherwise we would be living in chaos. We can't even begin to know what it's like to live in a dictated society, just ask the Iraqi people. I don't know what any of this has to do with declawing though. LOL

My opinion is this... when you decide to get a cat, you know it has claws... you know exactly what it's claws are capable of... so if you don't want the damage, don't get a cat. Plain and simple. If you have a kid... and that kids turns 2 and starts scribbling on your walls, and spilling stuff on your furniture and carpet... are you going to have their fingers cut off at the joint so they can't do that anymore? Absolutely not, cuz that would be absurd.... right? So what's the difference?!

I hope no one takes any offense to anything I've said... it's just my opinion. Especially you Cas... I know you're a good hearted person and you take great care of your cats. You cried when you had your cats declawed, so I know you understand the pain and severity of the surgery. But Mike here seems to take it lightly, and is trying to justify his decisions with silly comparions that don't even come close.


** Gets off soapbox ** LOL

I don't know if people shouldn't get a cat, if they're going to declaw. I think they should try their hardest to avoid the procedure and recognize that cats can be trained.

However, I see all those babies at the pound and living in our neighborhood without loving owners. If I had to choose between certain pound death, or death by parasite outside, then I'd choose declawing and a loving owner.

Lily had terrible parasites when we found her and took her in. She would have been dead in less than a week and it was a lot more painful than what she is going through now.

It's just hard to say. There isn't a perfect solution. And, for kids, they grow out of that scribbling on things phase - I wish I could talk and reason with my cats. They just refuse to learn English - except for the word Tuna - that they took time to learn.

"Mike.... As far as human circumcision, that is the HUMANS CHOICE! So you can not even begin to compare that to declawing a cat. A cat has no choice, the owner made the choice for him/her. I think having the joint of your finger removed would be severely painful... so if the vet described it to me that way, it would have been enough just cause for me to choose NOT to have my cats declawed."

I think I have found our differences of opinion. First we are different people. We have different values and beliefs. We have different morals.
We even have different faiths. It seems people who disfavors this also seems to have a high priority for animals, giving them the same, or nearly the same attributes and importance as humans. I believe that what my faith tells me, that animals were put here on this earth to serve people and it is the very people they serve that has to answer to the wrongs they commit against animals.

Also at the same time it was the one's against declawing that "ASCRIBED" this procedure as well as pain, and with such terms as ruthless, barbaric, inhumane, "ASSOCIATING" cats as well as animals in general, giving them human attributes. Animals have no comprehension of the terms above. They have no thought process or opinions as do humans. That is why we try and train animals based on a reward system, which is what they respond to so well. Just because you or another sees something as inhumane or barbaric does not make it so. Nor does what I believe make something so.


"Also, your reference of animals suffering severe pain/death from getting hit by cars, and misplaced shots... those are accidents, declawing is intentional... so again, the two don't compare."

The bottom line is or was, pain is pain. Pain does not know the difference between something intentional or not. My point from this was, if you read my post closely, was that the cruelty lay in people treating their animals badly, NOT by the fact animals had to endure some amount of pain. One could use "fixing" your cat or dog as a form of cruelty if they so desired. There is pain involved. And if that be the case one could include about every animal used by man because man "fixes" neuters or spays almost every type of animal he is invloved with.

So from this basis we have people saying it is painful, inhumane, barbaric, un-natural, and who knows what else. I am saying these people are basing their opinions on human reasoning; correalating and associating this with human feeling and emotions, thus "ASCRIBING" human traits onto animals. It doesn't work this way! Animals only respond with their instinct and conditioning. That is all they know because they can't comprehend and reason as humans can. So it is these people who is trying to decide the fate of all animals based on what they think alone. Anyone disagreeing with them is labelled as bad, inhuman, barbaric or worse.


"Yes every human/animal will suffer some kind of pain at some point in their lives, but that doesn't necessarily mean we want the pain purposely inflicted on us."

We all suffer pain as a conditional term. We suffer pain in order to live. There are lots of pains I didn't chuse that afflicts me. (I am disabled.) The pain choose me or I choose to tolerate the pain in order to live. Animals are not much different in the aspect that they would never chuse to hurt themselves when given a choice. We really can't administer meds to animals easily because their instinct tells them it may harm them! My point being animals don't know what's best for their own welfare a lot of times, especially concerning domesticated animals. The tradeoff is overwhelmingly a good deal for the domestic animal in the vast majority of cases. They have to go through some pain, for only a short while and in return their lifspan is "GREATLY" increased, they are better fed, better cared for and live easier lives than their undomesticated counterparts.


"I don't agree about society dictating what is best for us either, and I see nothing wrong with our country."

Well that is what you are supporting if you think it should be determined how we raise and care for our animals/pets. Declawing a cat is one thing, but tormenting it and being cruel to it is another.

The problem with the counrty, the USA today is that we have become a country intent on looking after the welfare of our neighbors, by government, by law, by rewards and punishments. We must look after everyone's elses' business because everyone thinks everyone else is not smart enough to do it for themselves. We're becoming just like the pets we are trying to protect. Pets like ourselves needing protection and guidence from our owners. The USA was NOT based on any European government. Matter of fact our founding fathers strived to get us away from the governments of europe. They were hoping and trying to give us a government where everyone was responsible for their own actions. As I said it is not the declawing that is bad, it is the treatment afterwards; And each cat's treatment could be considered with any individual regardless whether the cat was declawed or not.

I've read on the PETA and other animal rights sites, where they think owning an aquarium with tropical fish is just terrible, cruel and barbaric. And these same people state their case against eating meat, which they consider barbaric and cruel. Such opinions, to me, just flies in the face of reality. Again, if I own a pet I am responsible for its' well being. Let the individual choose what's best for animal as long as they don't abuse it. And declawing is not abuse but a choice. It is a choice because the pet owner owns the pet. (NOT the other way rond!)


"As indivuduals, we do have the freedom to experience and act on our own beliefs, and decide whats best for us. But there still has to be some set limitations and rules, otherwise we would be living in chaos."

The rules are simple. Let each person do as they see fit unless specific and clear abuse is present. I mean abuse to include such things as physical abuse that continues, and to the point that life is threatened. Not caring for the animals/pets is another, letting them starve. Conditioning animals to be overly aggressive is something I consider an abuse. Not having proper living quarters is another form of abuse. By and large if the above conditions are met, the animals not abused, then it is up to the owner to care for the animal the best way he sees fit, including decalwing a cat if that is what it takes to give the animal a better home that what it had.


"We can't even begin to know what it's like to live in a dictated society, just ask the Iraqi people. I don't know what any of this has to do with declawing though. LOL"

We don't know what freedom really means either. NOT from the standpoint as it was originally given us by our founding fathers.
Iraq is just an example of where the USA is headed in the future, as we continue to give our freedoms back to the government. Freedom is about choice, NOT about a welfare state, nor about un-needed laws. And freedom carries with it an enormous responsibility of being able to live with the choices we make as individuals, and not making or having society dictate what our choices should be. Meaning if we make make a mistake we should have to pay for it without blaming the rest of society for our mistakes and then involving innocent people. Sadly no one now wants to take responsibility for their actions, leaving it for a court to decide, even the most simple of cases.


"My opinion is this... when you decide to get a cat, you know it has claws... you know exactly what it's claws are capable of... so if you don't want the damage, don't get a cat. Plain and simple. If you have a kid... and that kids turns 2 and starts scribbling on your walls, and spilling stuff on your furniture and carpet... are you going to have their fingers cut off at the joint so they can't do that anymore? Absolutely not, cuz that would be absurd.... right? So what's the difference?!"

I know the animal can have offspring to! So what do I do?
I also know I will be the owner of such an animal and that I am responsible for the care of that animal. Therefore it is my responsibility to decide the best course of action in keeping the animal and keeping it without abusing it.


"I hope no one takes any offense to anything I've said... it's just my opinion. Especially you Cas... I know you're a good hearted person and you take great care of your cats. You cried when you had your cats declawed, so I know you understand the pain and severity of the surgery. But Mike here seems to take it lightly, and is trying to justify his decisions with silly comparions that don't even come close."

Actually I hadn't read anything about this until I was in the vets office and read about it in Cat Fancy Magazine. I knew some people didn't approve of it but I didn't know it was making this big of headlines.

As for justifying anything, no I am NOT about to justify anything to you or to any other human being, except maybe my wife. I'll answer to Christ someday and I know there is nothing I can hide from Him. I was just curious enough to write a post about it, and unfortuantly I seem to have hit a sore spot. That was not my intent.

The problem is I can live with the decision I made but the ones who disagrees with me can't live with my decisions. I mean you are forced to abide by own decision because you can't change the law to suit yourself. And you hate that and dislike the person for doing something you don't approve of. Somewhere in your life, in everyone's life there is something they do that could be considered risky, immoral, a vice, inhuman, cruel, as well as many other things. Do you want people telling you, you can't do those things? I want you to continue having the choice to do all those things, even if I personally don't do them.

My points from this are many:

1) Who really supports freedom and who doesn't?
2) Who thinks they support freedom but doesn't?
3) Where does the responibility lie in owning animals?
4) We have differing beliefs and faiths.
5) We place different values on different things.
6) Who is right and who is wrong?
7) Society will never have the capability to solve our problems though government if they continueally delegate their freedoms for government to use for their benefit, as they deem fit. Because we will end up with no rights to delegate anything to the government.

BTW, I may not be the cruel person you think me to be. I've never even hit my cats, for any reason, much less hurt them any other way. Nor do I intend to sound harsh towards you or anyone, nothing personal whatsoever. However just by the nature of the reality of my writting, I know it can sometimes be seen as harsh and un-caring. I am not an un-caring person, but the way I understand life, I must see things in their reality before I am able to ascribe the human trait of feeling or caring to it.

Cheers,
Mike

HOLY CRAP! I didn't think it would turn into all this... dayum! LOL Your original post asked what everyones opinions were on declawing, so I gave my opinion to your question! I wasn't looking for any kind of arguement about animal rights, peoples beliefs, the government, etc.

I never said or thought you were some cruel animal abuser or anything like that. I only said I think you take the subject too lightly, cuz of the comparisons and different things you said about it. Declawing IS VERY painful for cats, it's a proven fact. Just because they're not human, doesn't mean they don't have feelings, and feel pain just like humans.

I never said I wanted to change any laws to suite myself. I don't hate or dislike people that do things I don't approve of. I do voice my opinion when asked (and sometimes when not asked too), but that doesn't mean I hate everyone that disagrees with me.

Everybody is always gonna have a difference of opinions, no matter what the subject.

As far as the whole government thing... I could careless about government issues.... But I still say we have alot of freedom, and many of our fellow Americans have died this year, and in the past years fighting for us to have this freedom... enough said.

Mike,

I know this is a hot button topic and would evoke response. Just so you know, I am positive you love your cats. What makes me so sure? You are looking at spending hundreds of dollars to give them a better place to poop - something that will make your relationship with them better. I am sure that is also why they're declawed.

Everyone,

I don't judge those who don't do it. I understand the reasons. I understand the reasons to do it, too. We all are charged with treating animals with kindness and I think all of us on these boards are going over and beyond the call of duty. Thus the hundred dollar cat toilets. People in most of the world don't live as well as our cats, seriously.

We could argue these points and never see eye to eye. We could argue other things, find things wrong with other things, like say breeding cats when there are so many to adopt. There are many morality arguments to make and there are people on all sides who have a point and who love their animals.

So, I think we should all rest this topic, knowing that all sides have been heard. Let future readers know there are two sides to this argument and that they shouldn't make their decision lightly.

Agreed cas,
Enough has been said on the subject itself.
I learned several things and that was more than I was hoping, except not enough people chimed in.

I had hoped that everyone would have kept any personal associative negative remarks to themselves, but I guess the topic was too hot. I just hope no one comes out with any ill will because of it.

I wrote as much as I did in my long post because I didn't know how far this would go. My main point was in making a basis for the things I believed in and having the ability to back it up.

Government, religion and faith may not have seemed like something to have added in this but they all are built on each other. And all leads each of us to ALL of our opinions. I was prepared to show all the connections with my last post if need be.

I think in the end, our animals will be part of our testimony before Christ. The animals will help show all the good and evil that is in man, what he has done. Just because I may believe that man has dominance over the animals does not mean man should mistreat the responsibility he was given. But I do think it helps seperate the good from the bad people, by how they treat their animals

I think it odd now, I promised my wife an aquarium if we didn't get any more cats. I thought, gee, fish can't tear up the furniture and they will be easier to look after. WRONG! I now have 3 aquariums and 2 cats since. Plus the one 16 year old cat who is barely going.

I don't know how long I will be posting, untill I get distracted by something else, but I'll read the forums once in awhile. It did look like the forums needed some stimulating to, as it was getting pretty slow. It's also odd that all I came here for, originally, was to read about the LitteMaid boxes and some cat litter.

Thanks,
and Cheers to Everyone,
Mike