Automatic Litterbox Central

Pelvis Popcan wrote:I would understand (but not like) the removal of posts if there were security features implemented into the design of the cartridge that had to be "cracked" using proprietary software. (For example, the contents of the EEPROMs were scrambled and you had to unscramble them by downloading copyrighted code to "crack" the encryption.)

It is proprietary... its Petnovation's design... not anyone else's.

Pelvis Popcan wrote:To suggest that "reprogramming" these cartridge chips is illegal would be like saying that if you bought a watch with a battery, it is illegal and "hacking" the watch by replacing the battery when it died, instead you have to buy a new watch.

Actually...not quite... the people that build watches don't deliberately grind off the markings on the battery so you can't determine what to get for a replacement. Petnovation's method for security was to remove the markings on the chip... now I agree its a pretty weak security feature... but none the less... it was done to protect their product.

Pelvis Popcan wrote:Again I plead with the board admin to restore the deleted posts. This is supposed to be a pro-customer website, not a pro-corporation website.

Not entirely sure its fair to say that because Petnovations wanted their intellectual property protected that this site is being pro-corporation, or that its a bad thing.... without Petnovations, we wouldn't have a Cat Genie.

Personally I think its great that people are tinkerers... but this sort of thing can become a legal issue whether we like it or not... its a function of business.

Sorry for the confusion. PN had nothing to do with my removal of posts. I got upset at the direction things were going. DON'T TRY TO MAKE MONEY FROM THIS!

56Effie wrote:Sorry for the confusion. PN had nothing to do with my removal of posts. I got upset at the direction things were going. DON'T TRY TO MAKE MONEY FROM THIS!

They where your posts and you have the choice of pulling them, I support you in that.

I did not get the impression that the supplier was trying to sell more units. I think the supplier was just trying to clear up issues with his units. Although posting on this board was not a bright idea on his part.

Hazmat wrote:

56Effie wrote:Sorry for the confusion. PN had nothing to do with my removal of posts. I got upset at the direction things were going. DON'T TRY TO MAKE MONEY FROM THIS!

They where your posts and you have the choice of pulling them, I support you in that.

First of all, I apologize for my misunderstanding regarding PetNovations. It appears that once again I was wrong and they well knew that posting this information was both legal and within the rights of their customers.

But secondly, I have to disagree on posters "having the choice" to remove their old posts. I have seen more than one instance on a forum where the admins viewed (and I agree with this view) that the removal of a user's posts is not their choice, as it harms the usefulness of the board. For example, on one forum, a long time poster and contributer got into an argument with another poster. A moderator felt the longtime contributer was getting too nasty and asked him to please watch his words. The longtime contributer reacted by staying up all night, from 11 PM until 5 AM in the morning, by going back and deleting EVERY POST he had EVER POSTED to the forum. The admins were not pleased, and they banned him, and then simply restored all of his deleted posts. Maybe they lost the contributer but it was better than losing all of his past content. Furthermore, they set their forum so that users could only edit or delete their posts for 10 minutes after posting. After that, the post becomes permanent.

My main point is, when someone contributes to a forum information that others find useful, at that point going back and deleting the old useful posts is harmful to the forum and harmful to others. I disagree with it and it shouldn't be allowed. I still plead to the board admins to restore the deleted posts.

Hazmat wrote:I did not get the impression that the supplier was trying to sell more units. I think the supplier was just trying to clear up issues with his units.

This I do agree on. He saw people were ordering his units, found the board, and tried to help users who were having problems. At no time did he directly try to sell more units. He was simply supporting his software. That's the sort of thing that should be ENCOURAGED, not DISCOURAGED.

rainman wrote:It is proprietary... its Petnovation's design... not anyone else's.

Weak argument. You made a very simple and ambiguous statement. What do you mean by "it"? The design of the entire unit itself? Yes, that is proprietary. But we are talking about only one component of that design. The EEPROM chip on the cartridge. PetNovations did not design the EEPROM chip. Their BIOS in the CatGenie writes a countdown to the chip. Again, if I post "60-1=59, 59-1=58...1-1=0", according to you, I just posted PetNovations "proprietary design" and violated their copyright!

rainman wrote:Actually...not quite... the people that build watches don't deliberately grind off the markings on the battery so you can't determine what to get for a replacement. Petnovation's method for security was to remove the markings on the chip... now I agree its a pretty weak security feature... but none the less... it was done to protect their product.

Wow, I would hate to live in a consumerist society based on your rules. Simply put a sticker on the battery compartment saying "Customer forbidden from replacing battery, purchase new unit when battery dies" is enough to call it "security" and then if you replace the battery yourself you're violating the DMCA. How wonderful!

Honestly, I am still mystified by customers like you who are in favor of companies denying you your rights. You actually want less rights as a consumer?

rainman wrote:Not entirely sure its fair to say that because Petnovations wanted their intellectual property protected that this site is being pro-corporation, or that its a bad thing.... without Petnovations, we wouldn't have a Cat Genie.

If they wanted their intellectual property protected, then they should have protected it. Again, the EEPROM chip they used was not their design, the BIOS in their CatGenie simply writes a countdown (which is 100% unencrypted or protected by any kind of proprietary security system) to the chip.

I love the CatGenie, I support PetNovations, I want them to be successful. I think the whole countdown system was a mistake and I think it's hurting them in the long run.

The whole argument is moot anyways, as PetNovations didn't ask 56Effie to remove his posts. I underestimated their integrity.

Instead, 56Effie decided he would post helpful information publicly. He then later decided on his own that the public didn't deserve the knowledge because someone might decide to "make money" off of it, so he punishes everyone by deleting all of his posts.

Pelvis Popcan wrote:Instead, 56Effie decided he would post helpful information publicly. He then later decided on his own that the public didn't deserve the knowledge because someone might decide to "make money" off of it, so he punishes everyone by deleting all of his posts.

Not really punishing, There were some post/PM's...(maybe not seen by others) that were leading up to possible legal actions if implemented. I didn't/don't want to be part of that.

BTW: I do agree with your comments about the eeprom. It's only a method of measure..a simple counter..a gas gauge.

So note to Petnovation: encrypt the EEPROM counter with a pseudo-random number using multiple memory locations in future models. It wouldn't take a lot of code to make it tough to reverse engineer.

Scott Larson wrote:So note to Petnovation: encrypt the EEPROM counter with a pseudo-random number using multiple memory locations in future models. It wouldn't take a lot of code to make it tough to reverse engineer.

I think this would require a full design change and no compatibility across platforms? Escalating user issues regarding cartridges. I think they should offer one with WIFI that you pay a monthly subscription too. Then you just pay to use it, which is no different then what is being done now.

rploaded wrote:I think this would require a full design change and no compatibility across platforms?

Yes, they would have to release an "improved" model. Some companies have employees working full time finding ways of making the next model of something completely incompatible with accessories of the previous model. Just look at the razor industry. Panasonic has geniuses in their electric razor department who are diabolical in finding ways of making the last model's replacement blades not fit the latest model.

They also somehow make your electric razor die as soon as you buy a lot of replacement blades for it.

Scott Larson wrote:
They also somehow make your electric razor die as soon as you buy a lot of replacement blades for it.

OFF TOPIC:

Switch to Straight Razor... Slight learning curve, but never buy blades again........ Also Eco friendyl!!!!

Pelvis Popcan wrote:Weak argument. You made a very simple and ambiguous statement. What do you mean by "it"? The design of the entire unit itself? Yes, that is proprietary. But we are talking about only one component of that design. The EEPROM chip on the cartridge. PetNovations did not design the EEPROM chip. Their BIOS in the CatGenie writes a countdown to the chip. Again, if I post "60-1=59, 59-1=58...1-1=0", according to you, I just posted PetNovations "proprietary design" and violated their copyright!

Ok... well ultimately if your are going to design something that has a fixed number of runs built into it... you have to count down... regardless, encrypted or not... unless you are measuring actual fluid levels of course.

Pelvis Popcan wrote:Wow, I would hate to live in a consumerist society based on your rules. Simply put a sticker on the battery compartment saying "Customer forbidden from replacing battery, purchase new unit when battery dies" is enough to call it "security" and then if you replace the battery yourself you're violating the DMCA. How wonderful!

Honestly, I am still mystified by customers like you who are in favor of companies denying you your rights. You actually want less rights as a consumer?

Thats kookie talk... I'm not talking about my rights as a consumer here... When I purchased the Cat Genie... I knew what I was getting into (as a consumer). Nobody is denying any rights here and I'm not suggesting that at all. All I'm saying is that the intent of their design is to provide a mechanism for a reoccurring revenue stream for their product... Similar to printer ink... and we all know how stupid expensive that is for nothing!

Pelvis Popcan wrote:If they wanted their intellectual property protected, then they should have protected it. Again, the EEPROM chip they used was not their design, the BIOS in their CatGenie simply writes a countdown (which is 100% unencrypted or protected by any kind of proprietary security system) to the chip.

I agree with you whole heartedly. Like I said, their "protection scheme" is weak... you see this sort of thing in the electronics industry all the time... when a custom PAL or logic chip is used... the markings are removed.

Pelvis, I wish you apologized with as much energy as you attacked us.

I would hope by now, people would see that we are a very honest and straightforward company that would not censor posts. In fact, if you recall Pelvis you wanted posts you made that were not very pleasant about us removed and we said no. Why? Because all of us here at Petnovations not only believe in our product but we also believe in the integrity of our customers words and believe that while we prefer to hear the good, we MUST hear it all--and that is what drives us to never be satisfied and to continue to innovate.

We have and always will stand behind our product. We try and answer tough customer questions and spend time on forums like this one and others to interact with people and never lose our ability to listen. Additionally our dedicated customer service representatives are available by phone 7 days a week, 14 hours each day and we will continue to do so, because we care about our current and future customers. While it may sound hokey, we believe that the CatGenie will one day be THE cat box for everyone. We hope that you support us in this mission and bring cat sanitation into the 21st century.

While I cannot say we support what you are doing, I can say that while cartridge sales are a part of our business model, they are also important to the safe function of the CatGenie. We have already had people try to refill and ruin their floors, gummed up the inside of their unit etc. That is why we sell a cartridge that is sealed with a safe but effective cleaning solution that has been tested to ensure that is not just safe for people, but just as safe for our target user your cat.

We are a start-up company that believes that we have the solution to the litter box and while the CatGenie is far from perfect we do know that it is pretty damn great and will only get better and better. We are only just half way through our 2nd year of business and I personally think our product is pretty amazing and I speak not only as an employee, but also as the longest running CatGenie user in the USA.

We have plenty of things planned that we think will make people want to buy cartridges and that is our goal. We hope you support us not because you have to but because you want to.


Stay tuned!

I honestly couldn't have imagined that 56Effie removed his posts on his own. It's just not something I normally see users do (as I mentioned I've seen it happen, but only once in a blue moon).

So, I am VERY VERY VERY VERY SORRY that I jumped the gun and assumed you "bullied" him!

I jumped the gun, I immediately came to the wrong conclusion, I was a fool, I was an idiot, I was a moron.

A million slaps to me with a large trout for my quickness to blame the wrong people!

I HUMBLY APOLOGIZE.

I hope that was enough energy!

I also would like to echo the concern about refilling with non official solution.

The official solution is anti-bacterial and anti-microbial. The CatGenie granules are bio degradable. Therefore, if you refill with a non anti bacterial solution, you will comprise the integrity of the granules and the functioning of your unit.

rploaded wrote:Switch to Straight Razor... Slight learning curve, but never buy blades again........ Also Eco friendyl!!!!

But hemophiliac unfriendly.